First of all: I love the Idea of a full rework on skills!
however there are a few things I dont like about this "classless". Classes are an important thing to identify yourself with. You dont want to play with 4 humans in a team all looking the same and aiming for the highes dps build... It's all about DIVERSITY!
so lets start to evaluate:

What is the challenge?
Killing without getting killed. A progressive play style to get XP and Item rewards for further challenge.

What we got to rule this?
495 attribute points, 131 skill points, 30 skills per class, 15 weapon types and a shield, 12 Item slots, 4 main attributes, 5 damage types, 2 ways to apply (basic attack/spell) a charge system and health regeneration. (this is btw the reason for classes to appear similar...)

So how to get diversity in here?
Lets talk about classes and roles:
- The class is something to preset your starting point in the game with certain class unique powers you can specialize in. (in vanilla it's 5-15 points per attribute, different skills and chargebar boni...)
How to be unique with this low kit?
By combining the chargebar mechanic with the skills. The engineer is a good example, the outlander is a bad one, his skills only benefit passively from the buff. I'd like to see the outlander automatically summon Shadowling Brute when fully charged (1 min last and 3 min cooldown). though i like the 3 skill trees idea to open up some specialisation per class.
- The role is something to preset your main focus on game mechanics with certain role unique powers you can optimize. (the attributes promote "critter" - "caster" - "tank")

How to implement roles into the game?
Leave the 4 stats system and open it up for any viable affix you want to invest in.
Roles should be available for all classes even if the class preset puts them into a certain area.
They could be Item or weapon related so further progress and optimization also means to leave things behind. (Item specialization could be realized by spending attribute points on the preferred weapon type to optimize handling and damage output. (compare scrolls passive boni) )

Back to the Skill issue...  There are some models to go through. I'd prefer a mix of class unique skills and "open" skills which could be passives everyone can benefit from.
Unlocking Skills will stay slaying monster/exp based. its just a question about the path we choose

Player level based (vanilla) using graphs as the main requirement to enable skills and it's 15 level.

Stat point based - IMO to be worth implementing there shouldn't be a skill limit. In case of your "only 4 skills" Idea, if you link them to stat point investment that would mean I've unlocked my 4 skills at ca. lvl 10 and then running around spending statpoints here and there with no reward then the affixes OR I have to wait for level 20 to finally unlock my second skill...

Tree based - easy implemented through Player Editor there you can set a required Skill for each Skill the player "knows". this opens up different paths to go deeper. lets say each level i can choose between 2 skills, most of them have to be passives to gain a slight bonus into 1 or another direction (by adding a stat and having a passive skill using a stat counter for the effect level/stat percent to currently use)

Something in between: Lets say you have a starting skill surrounded by others and its based on where you spend your attribute points to to unlock another skill. These can be single instance castable skills or "modifier" skills to edit the damagetype, range, cooldown etc. So we come up with a serious Skill map mainly with passive increments to active skills or atributes controlled by the way you invest these Attribute points. My suggestion on this would be to rework the existing 4.

To keep this open to other mods I suggest creating a new attribute system that conveys the "old" stats into the new ones so every existing class can be implemented (lets say 35%str+60%Foc=X% of a new Attribute. New attributes could include the 5 damage types or other boni like melee/range, 1h/2h weapons etc.)

...and there is health regeneration! Tho GOD under the effects. Sure you can stack your resistances but they won't heal you


*btw isnt that blasphemy creating an "anti-synergies" mod? 

Hey lolesch,

Yes.  You could easily™ implement a 'train to gain' type experience system like you described.  It won't work with the vanilla respec option, but you could make something manually.

I would recommend making it kill-based rather than hit-based.  Hit-based means that it actually favors tanks a lot more because you can get more xp from fewer monsters.  Kill-based means everyone gets the same xp for clearing an area.  If it takes the tank longer to do so, maybe we need to rebalance the tank-type character so his average clear time is roughly the same as the glass cannon... or just let him be and let party mechanics make up for it (that is, the tank's xp gain will be fine when in a group).

That's the other thing.  A character who kills monsters with a fast, repeating skill (Magma Spear) instead of big, single hits (Infernal Collapse) is going to get more xp (and faster) in a hit-based system.  They'll get the same in a kill-based system.

It also affects multiplayer.  If a tank and a glass cannon are playing together in a party, the xp will need to be shared somehow for the tank to get an even share of the xp.  Consider: ranged glass cannons can probably pop popcorn mobs long before a tank could reach them.

And here's how I'd set it up. For weapon skills, use hidden passives attached to the player unit file.  Passive skills can be given weapon requirements.  You can then use the passive to set a bool that indicates the player is using the given weapon setup and use that bool in a statwatcher for another skill that grants 'experience' to the current weapon setup's unique experience pool.  The following is a rough example and may need modifications to function:

Equipped Weapon - Sword and Board:
-Is a hidden passive attached to the player
-Requires a sword in the right hand, shield in the left.
-On Event_Start it sets the player's stat "weapon_equipped_swordnboard" to 1.
-On Event_End it sets "weapon_equipped_swordnboard" to 0.
-That's it.  But you'd want one skill for each possible weapon setup.  The bonus to this is that you can use the bool "weapon_equipped_swordnboard" to modify lots of other skills and effects if you like.

Experience Trigger -
-Is a Triggerable attached to the character via a hidden passive skill (see the Friendly Charge Bar Passives Tut for why you want to do it this way)
-Its condition is KILL and Filter Self is false (I believe this should then trigger whenever anyone gets a kill).  If you can set Unit Type here, set it to Friend.
-This triggerable will case the Experience skill

Experience -
-Is a hidden active proc skill enabled on the player unit
-On Event_Start it tries to apply multiple affixes, one for each possible weapon setup.  Each affix is gated with a Statwatcher that requires the correct "weapon_equipped_" stat.  In this case we want "weapon_equipped_swordnboard".
-The affix it applies should have an effect that adds 1 to the stat we want, in this case "experience_swordnboard".  We want this stat to be permanent, so set 'saves' to true.



Okay, so now we need to add something that will give the player a bonus.  There's a couple ways you could do this.  You could give them a set bonus for achieving a certain amount of experience with a weapon.  So, if "experience_swordnboard" is greater than 100, you get +5% melee damage.  That's pretty good. 

You could also award the players points which they can spend on swordnboard specific bonuses, then give them options.  This takes a lot more work than the set bonuses, but I think it makes it a more robust RPG element.

For this second option you could have 3 tier-1 passive skill offerings selectable in a modified skill window.  They could be SwordnBoard Damage (+5% physical damage), SwordnBoard Block (+2% block), SwordnBoard Speed (+2% attack speed).  Of course, with better names.

I'd probably use the UI for this.  It'd be easier.  So:

LevelUp -
-I'd probably add this to the HUD, since it's always on.
-You'll need to create a logic group for every possible weapon setup and every available levelup tier.  Lots of stuff!  But you'd have to do the same with skills, so this is less work and can be easily copypasta'd.
-Set up a logic group that contains the following elements.
-Start with a timer that initiates the logic every ~1 second or so.
-Use a Stat Evaluator for "experience_swordnboard".  Compare it to your threshold, maybe stat>100
-Use a Stat Evaluator for "swordnboard_tier1_awarded".  This will turn off the logic reward after it's been given once.
-Use a Stat Operator to give both "swordnboard_tier1_awarded" and "swordnboard_skillpoint".
-"...awarded" of course turns off the loop.  "...skillpoint" will of course allow you to buy a passive skill in the skill tree.

As for the skill tree.... I imagine that once you choose a Tier 1 skill you can design the system in one of two ways.  1)The other T1 options are locked and the next level you have to choose a T2 option.  2)The T2 options unlock but you can still buy a T1 option the next time you earn a skill point.

The purchasable passive skills would be really easy to create since they have no levels and will only have an Event_Start that applies the affix and an Event_End that removes it.



So, yes, I'm certain you can craft your alternate experience path.  You won't be able to use graphs (and likely no quadratic functions).  You'll have to input the thresholds manually with this method.  Are there other ways to implement your system?  Maybe.  Could we use the existing skill points and stat points and therefore the experience graph?  Yes, I think so, but not in this implementation.  It would require a dual xp system, one where you earn the points by leveling up as normal, but then you have to have the requisite skill points with a weapon style or other skill before you can invest in a bonus passive in that skill line.

The implementation I've outlined here would allow a character to learn ALL the skills and become a master of all trades (a la Skyrim).  It also works regardless of player level but I'm not sure this is a problem.  If we leave the current xp system in (and just gut the bonuses it provides) characters will still level up.  And I think the KILL trigger condition requires you to kill an enemy near your level (something that awards xp).

Theory crafting - this time I want to discus the RPG factor in relation to a classless system:

What are the core RolePlayGame elements?
Assume the role of a character and take responsibility of acting through a narrative story. In a system of rules development will improve your characters progress and decision making determines the outcome.

So what does that mean for an upcoming classless system?
The way I've understood the main opinion in here is to leave out the character differences to open up the possible skillset to everyone. When I'm right with my imagination this will
- Either reduce the skillset to somewhat like a categorical system where you only have 1 skill for each type, i.e.:
cast something that hits close enemies with a melee animation
cast something to perform a ranged attack from your weapon
cast things falling from the sky
summon something that helps you
cast something to buff a stat like damage or speed over time
Simple things everyone could take use of but with no variation or diversity inside a category
- Or end up in a confusing flood of various skills for one and the same thing but with slight differences, i.e.:
choose between a summoned zombie or a bat. zombies might hit harder but slower...
cast fire or ice bolts from the sky, fire to fear foes, ice to stun them...
choose between a melee animated skill that knocks back or one that interrupt or one that grants more charge or one that just looks more powerful cuz it shrinks enemies and let them glow green...

What I mean is that its hard to balance a classless system where a Summoner feels as comfortable with the skill collection as a ranged basic attack using Hunter without having only 4 skills for that kind of Role.

Personal thoughts:
To be clear I still aim for a classless system but this has to be defined.
For the moment I imagine something like a mix of PoE's "skill map" and D3's runes. The center of that map is surrounded by categorized skill sets - left you will find some berserk melee stuff, opposite you find the range skills. tankiness, summons, magics, illusions, whatever you might create, we place it in a location to fit the composition (bad though for adding stuff and skill extending mods).
Next to those main skills you get tons of passive modifiers - get this when that, do more this after that every X time, turn your melee attacks into Y damagetype, transform your StatA into StatB while in combat, etc. - this way active skills could get improved in different ways.
EDIT* quoting Kva3imoda: Interesting idea of passive skills in Grim Down:
what reminds me somehow of Skyrim
Skills could be more weapon related and make these more unique and another important decision - you won't be able so spam ranged skills with a claw etc.

Pros:
Decision making and development
diversity
modify skills to fit your playstyle

Cons:
development expansive
could get confusing (PoE)
this might get skill/class mods hard to integrate (what could be a pro cuz ppl focus more on other content to mod on)

Well I think you got the point.
let me know how you think about all that and the RPG components.
what skill categories you could think of and how would you like to opt out your character?

lolesch