Author Topic: Destroyer Gameplay Feedback (Read 5837 times)

Phanjam · « **on:** October 21, 2014, 09:36:51 am »

Was chatting with gyt on Steam and this came up...

Quote

gytfunke: What I did get from testing the Destro for about 30m was this...
gytfunke: It's a wee bit OP!

PHΔΠJΔM: LOL thats why I love it!

gytfunke: Mostly I think it's the state of Slash Attack, Soul Rend and the charge bar.

gytfunke: The thing starts with 25% DR, then gets another 20% from charge. Makes it really tough.

gytfunke: Then, Soul Rend just tears things up. It's way OP. But I don't know if you have Twinkle's latest stuff in there. It seems the same as it did when we first started on this two months ago.

I'll put up an issues summary somewhere in this thread to help us keep our eyes on the ball.

P.S. - yup that's all Twinkle's latest work

TwinkleToes · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2014, 12:28:50 pm »

soul rend probably destroys things purely from shocking monsters,
the damage is a bit high on the titan tree, but.. none of the damage values ive put in there exceed the embermages or berserkers raw numbes, the skills in there also have no mana costs, thats what i mainly use to balance out high damage skills
anyways
have you guys tested in the very end game?(where all the balancing maters)

i usually balance from OP>Nerf, meaning i make overpowered stuff then nerf them gradually down, so some of the stuff in there might be a bit OP

for the DR problem:
DR should never be a free stat, i suggest taking out the passive 25% then integrating it into the charge bar, and making that ramp up from 0-25%

gytfunke · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2014, 04:34:47 pm »

Okay, good to hear all the new stuff is in.

Soul Rend
Yeah, Soul Rend is way OP. Higher mana costs would definitely help. Also, in TL1, Soul Rend was a single target attack. This version is clear-cutting pretty much all monsters in a close range.

Slash Attack
Slash Attack is both OP and UP, but probably closer to balanced. If you're dual-wielding, it rocks the house. Considering the REALLY short range of the attack, this is probably fine as long as the mana cost is bumped a bit. It's at like 5 right now at level 1. If you're NOT dual-wielding, you get half the damage out of it and it's pretty weak. It doesn't really do anything more than a basic attack. If you wanted to narrow the damage gap between dual-wielding and a single one-hander on this skill you could change it like this:

a) There should be two HIT points on the animation timeline. Change one to HITTWO.
b) Copy and paste the EVENT_TRIGGER in the skill to make a second entry. Make it an EVENT_TRIGGERTWO.
c) Increase the damage on EVENT_TRIGGER, decrease the damage on EVENT_TRIGGERTWO.

Voila. It would make dual-wielding benefit this skill, but not double the damage.

Charge Bar
I like you idea of removing the inherent 25% damage reduction, Twinkle, but it doesn't line up with Runic's decision to add it to the other two melee classes. I think we should replace the damage reduction on the charge mechanic for something else. Maybe a 0-20% bonus to armor.

(Does this actually reduce total damage reduction? Let's see:
Example 1: 45% DR (from inherent bonus and charge bar)
Monster deals 1000 damage, - player armor (200?) = 800-(800*0.45)= 440

Example 2: 25% DR (from inherent bonus), +20% armor
Monster deals 1000 damage, - player armor (220) = 780-(780*0.25)= 585

Example 3: same as 2, but with more armor
1000 damage, - player armor (500*1.20) = 400 - (400*0.25) = 300

Example 4: same as 1, but with more armor
1000 damage, - player armor (500) = 500 - (500*0.25) = 375)

I think I'm okay with the 20% armor bonus more than the 20% DR. What say you?

Shadow Armor
I think the block bonus is too high. I'm thinking 4% +1 per level (max 18%) would be more appropriate. As is, it's 4% +3 per level (max +46% block). With the average shield's block rating (+10%) and maxxing the Block passive (30% block), you've already exceeded the block cap without even investing in Vitality.

In return, I think the damage of the Shadow Armor should go up with each level (it doesn't right now, keeping in line with TL1 Shadow Armor).

TwinkleToes · « **Reply #3 on:** October 22, 2014, 12:23:13 am »

Quote

I like you idea of removing the inherent 25% damage reduction, Twinkle, but it doesn't line up with Runic's decision to add it to the other two melee classes. I think we should replace the damage reduction on the charge mechanic for something else. Maybe a 0-20% bonus to armor.

i would go the other way around, and do 20% inherent armor bonus, then the reduction on the charge bar, it would make the destro more unique to the other melee classes,
if we were to 100% copy runic, i would get rid of the generic passives on the Tl1 classes and actually give them unique passives of their own, like TL2, but that's up to phan to decide i guess..

Phanjam · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am »

Soul Rend

If the damage is at TL1 levels right now I say we keep that, but totally agree it should affect only a single enemy like in TL1. Yes this skill should cost you a LOT of mana.

Slash Attack

gyt, on your suggestion about 2 hit events - sorry if Im not understanding, but won't this just apply to your 2nd weapon as well? I believe I can handle the addition of another hit event on the animation tho.

On the mana cost - can I start it at a higher level (than 5) but still use a graph to increment it?

Shadow Armor

I'm with you gyt on reducing the block so it caps at 18 or so.

I like the idea of greater damage as you level the skill, but I don't think it should be major. Another option is to add something other than damage. knockback? immobilize? DOT?

Charge Bar

Quote from: TwinkleToes

i would go the other way around, and do 20% inherent armor bonus, then the (damage) reduction on the charge bar, it would make the destro more unique to the other melee classes,

gyt, correct me ifI'm wrong, but wasn't the original idea to grant the effect only when the bar gets full, not while building charge? I remember we computed you'd need to get hit like 25 times before you fill that bar, which is quite a bit of damage to take. So finally getting the effect is probably something you'd really need by that time

As to what effect is granted, if it's ON/OFF (as I suggest above) I'm fine with either DR or Armor Bonus (maybe because I don't appreciate the finer differences between these). If not, maybe we could consider stuff like %Block? Dodge?

Something else to consider so the defensive effect doesn't get overused - could building charge on the "offensive" bar (from landing hits) reduce charge on the defensive bar?

Quote from: TwinkleToes

if we were to 100% copy runic, i would get rid of the generic passives on the Tl1 classes and actually give them unique passives of their own, like TL2, but that's up to phan to decide i guess..

Twinkle, I hesitate to do that as it would really break away from the TL1 mold. Also, I see (and this is just me) the passives in there now as just variations on the same variables which the TL2 classes use for their passives. Maybe another approach is to see if we'vemissed out on any passives which would be good to add to the generics?

gytfunke · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2014, 02:47:59 pm »

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Slash Attack

gyt, on your suggestion about 2 hit events - sorry if Im not understanding, but won't this just apply to your 2nd weapon as well? I believe I can handle the addition of another hit event on the animation tho.

Mmm, I wasn't clear. This skill has 2 possible animations. One animation fires when wielding one weapon (2-hand or 1-hand, doesn't matter). Then, if you're dual-wielding, it fires a different animation. The dual-wielding animation has 2 HIT points (the other has only 1). With 2 HIT points, it's firing the EVENT_TRIGGER twice, i.e. double damage.

What I suggest is changing one of the HIT points to a HITTWO, which is linked to EVENT_TRIGGER_TWO. Then, we put in an EVENT_TRIGGER_TWO which deals less than full damage. So, instead of dealing 2xdamage for dual wielding, maybe give it 1.4xdamage.

The EVENT_TRIGGER_TWO will never be called when wielding one weapon because there's no HITTWO point on that animation's timeline.

EVENT_TRIGGER would deal say 86% WDPS, always
EVENT_TRIGGER_TWO would deal say 34% WDPS, but only when dual-wielding.

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

On the mana cost - can I start it at a higher level (than 5) but still use a graph to increment it?

If you put a value in the MANA_COST field, it overwrites the MANA_GRAPH field, I believe. Or maybe it adds to it. Either way... just use the MANA_GRAPH, then if you want to make it cost more or less, use the MANA_GRAPH_SCALE field.

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Shadow Armor

I'm with you gyt on reducing the block so it caps at 18 or so.

I like the idea of greater damage as you level the skill, but I don't think it should be major. Another option is to add something other than damage. knockback? immobilize? DOT?

I'm now thinking that maybe the block bonus on this should be removed altogether and replaced with a flat, level-scaling, bonus to armor. There's too much block going around. Or, it could be something like 0.5% or 0.67% block per level + some bonus flat armor.

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Charge Bar

gyt, correct me ifI'm wrong, but wasn't the original idea to grant the effect only when the bar gets full, not while building charge? I remember we computed you'd need to get hit like 25 times before you fill that bar, which is quite a bit of damage to take. So finally getting the effect is probably something you'd really need by that time

As to what effect is granted, if it's ON/OFF (as I suggest above) I'm fine with either DR or Armor Bonus (maybe because I don't appreciate the finer differences between these). If not, maybe we could consider stuff like %Block? Dodge?

Oh, right now it's a constant bonus that just gets better as the bar builds (so 10% charge = +2%DR right now, 100% charge = +20%DR). It's kinda like the Outlander's charge bar.

I like the constant bonus, but that's just me. I leave the ultimate decision up to you, Phanjam.

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Something else to consider so the defensive effect doesn't get overused - could building charge on the "offensive" bar (from landing hits) reduce charge on the defensive bar?

Possible, but would it be desirable? I don't know how this would feel.

gytfunke · « **Reply #6 on:** October 23, 2014, 06:03:11 pm »

STOP THE PRESSES

Whoa.

I just loaded the TL1CP onto my work computer (ain't nothin' going on right now).

I'm seeing all of your guys' new work. What I was playing on my laptop at home was not the most recent version. For some reason I think an older existing version of the mod (with the same mod name most likely) was taking precedence over the Steam version.

Twinkle, gorgeous work on Soul Rend! I love it! Not OP at all.

I'll keep testing as I have time, but this is looking waaaaay better now that I'm seeing all of your guys' updates.

TwinkleToes · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2014, 07:28:34 pm »

thanks gyt

Quote

I'm now thinking that maybe the block bonus on this should be removed altogether and replaced with a flat, level-scaling, bonus to armor. There's too much block going around. Or, it could be something like 0.5% or 0.67% block per level + some bonus flat armor.

try %vitality, since vitality already gives you block, but not too much of it, the percentage will also encourage investing into vitality to make the most use of the skill

Quote

If the damage is at TL1 levels right now I say we keep that, but totally agree it should affect only a single enemy like in TL1. Yes this skill should cost you a LOT of mana.

i agree with this and will make changes once i can get some time

Quote

wasn't the original idea to grant the effect only when the bar gets full, not while building charge? I remember we computed you'd need to get hit like 25 times before you fill that bar, which is quite a bit of damage to take. So finally getting the effect is probably something you'd really need by that time

i think this way would promote a non melee kite style, you'd never want to get to a state where you need to get hit 25 times just for defensive stats, when you could just play smart and avoid getting hit as much as possible which totally goes against the destroyers archetype imo
this would also discourage building dodge, since dodging will not grant you any charge, if you wanted to play against the destros archetype and mass dodge everything

Quote

Twinkle, I hesitate to do that as it would really break away from the TL1 mold. Also, I see (and this is just me) the passives in there now as just variations on the same variables which the TL2 classes use for their passives. Maybe another approach is to see if we'vemissed out on any passives which would be good to add to the generics?

well yea, and heres my pitch to you phan
some tl2 passives are as generic as the tl1 passives..
but stuff like the shadowling ammo/ death ritual interaction, which gives you a different avenue for builds on a character, can be added on to the old classes, and give our users a fresh perspective on the class they loved from tl1.
also i love developing and creating passive skills, its incredibly satisfying to me when you can get some insane idea to work, and purely for that i would make new passives for the tl1 classes,
but the ball is on your court phan, and i just wanted to give my thoughts to you, so you can see a different point of view

gytfunke · « **Reply #8 on:** October 24, 2014, 12:17:42 am »

Quote

this would also discourage building dodge, since dodging will not grant you any charge

Dodges and blocks are hooked up to add charge to the defensive bar, just like getting hit.

gytfunke · « **Reply #9 on:** October 24, 2014, 07:33:41 am »

So, here's my feedback so far now that I'm playing the real thing.

Slash Attack
Is pretty good as is. Add 'Can Attack Fallback' at the skill level.

Stampede
The attack/cast speed debuffs seem kinda low. Otherwise, pretty nice.

Soul Rend
I don't think this needs to be single target. Sorry, the skill I was so blown away by was the original which was doing 125% dps + flat electric damage to everything within 3m of the destro, twice (there were two hit points on the animation). The current version is awesome.

Shadow Armor
I dunno about vitality. Adding a % to a primary stat seems OP since it'll make item unlocks easier. I think I'm going to go with that 1/2 block, 1/2 armor solution. The armor will boost the effectiveness of Shield Slam (which doesn't seem to do much damage right now).

Entropic Aura
I need to give this a duration indicator. Also going to increase its duration to 2m.

Doomquake
Can attack fallback, maybe?

gytfunke · « **Reply #10 on:** October 24, 2014, 02:30:12 pm »

Blast Wave
...is unfortunately identical to the Tier 6 skill in the Titan tree. This skill should be replaces since Twinkle's looks fantastic. So, lemme get some ideas for a replacement skill:

1)An active skill that matches the theme of the Spectral tree? I'm thinking:

Doom Knell

The Destroyer commands the souls of dead enemies within ~8m to attack the nearest enemy. 36-50% chance to cause enemies to flee for 5s. Deals flat ice damage.

Can affect up to 4 corpses.
Tier bonuses increase fear duration to 6/7/8s.

(Requires and destroys corpses. Creates homing missiles, not summoned units.)

2)A new aura? Maybe something that buffs the party? I'm thinking:

Spirit Bond
As the Destroyer builds charge, the Destroyer and all allies within the aura's radius gain combat bonuses.

(But opposite of the Destroyer's normal bonuses, as the destroyer builds charge from damage taken/blocked/dodged, allies would gain attack speed or damage boosts. As s/he builds charge from damage dealt, allies gain armor or damage reduction)

Tier Bonuses would include added stun/immobilize resistance.

Phanjam · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2014, 10:44:26 pm »

Hiyya!

Spoiler (hover to show)

Warrior Tree Stuff

Thanks @gytfunke for all the feedback!

Okay, I'll add CAN ATTACK FALLBACK on Slash Attack. That's adding the line
"<BOOL>CAN_ATTACK_FALLBACK:true"
in the .DAT, am I right? But allow me a newb question - what does this do to/for the skill?

On Stampede's attack/cast speed debuffs being a little low, let me bump those up a bit.

Just let me know if you guys see anything that needs improvement on the other skills (I need to get more playtime into TL1CP too

)

Charge Bar

Okay the consensus is that the bars should grant benefits as they build-up. Done

I'm with Twinkle that the Destro archetype style is "the best defense is a BLOODBATH OFFENSE!" So I think the "defensive" charge bar is useful mainly in MP where a party needs a tank (and I think having a class feature that benefits/promotes MP party-play is a good thing

)

I wanna say maybe the defensive-bar should support the tank role specifically, But I don't really know what playstyle the "tank role" is or what it needs (having played mainly SP myself).

On the danger that the defensive boosts make the class OP for single player, how about variations on the idea that "offensive charge negates defensive charge"?

Class-specific Passives

@TwinkleToes I'm actually with you on the idea of adding totally new passives in TL1CP, since a lot of the TL1 passives we have in there are already available in TL2 as tomes or spells which make our passives redundant.

But this is our mod not just mine, so I really think we need a little pow-wow on this...

My personal idea is to replace some of the TL1CP passives with wild new passives, but make them available to all the TL1CP classes in keeping with the TL1 mold.

Pls share your thoughts

TwinkleToes · « **Reply #12 on:** October 25, 2014, 03:09:30 am »

Quote

My personal idea is to replace some of the TL1CP passives with wild new passives, but make them available to all the TL1CP classes in keeping with the TL1 mold.

OMG yes!, this is beyond what i was thinking

,
we can make each set of passives on each tree be related to each class,
for instance the destroyer would have an opportunity to invest in passives which would be themed/related for the alch or vanq,
allowing a mix and match type system,
they would be shared amongst the 3 classes, but they could potentially serve very different functions for each one!

Quote

Okay, I'll add CAN ATTACK FALLBACK on Slash Attack. That's adding the line
"<BOOL>CAN_ATTACK_FALLBACK:true"
in the .DAT, am I right? But allow me a newb question - what does this do to/for the skill?

yep just add it in the skill strings
attack fallback allows a skill to default(fallback) to your auto attacks when you don't have enough mana to cast the skill or when the skill goes on cooldown

Quote

Blast Wave
...is unfortunately identical to the Tier 6 skill in the Titan tree. This skill should be replaces since Twinkle's looks fantastic. So, lemme get some ideas for a replacement skill:

Doom Knell

The Destroyer commands the souls of dead enemies within ~8m to attack the nearest enemy. 36-50% chance to cause enemies to flee for 5s. Deals flat ice damage.

Can affect up to 4 corpses.
Tier bonuses increase fear duration to 6/7/8s.

(Requires and destroys corpses. Creates homing missiles, not summoned units.)

thanks

this would be a good replacement, the spectral tree doesn't need another aura, and the destro is lacking in missile skills anyways, the only skills with missiles in them are doomquake and spectral bowman.

Phanjam · « **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2014, 03:37:08 am »

Quote from: TwinkleToes

OMG yes!, this is beyond what i was thinking ,
we can make each set of passives on each tree be related to each class,
for instance the destroyer would have an opportunity to invest in passives which would be themed/related for the alch or vanq,
allowing a mix and match type system,
they would be shared amongst the 3 classes, but they could potentially serve very different functions for each one!

Ey @TwinkleToes I'm glad you liked the idea! Let's listen to what @gytfunke thinks too. Would love to hear from @RnF as well, but I know he's been really busy lately. If he can't get back to us I think it'll be okay for just the 3 of us to make the call

Quote from: TwinkleToes

attack fallback allows a skill to default(fallback) to your auto attacks when you don't have enough mana to cast the skill or when the skill goes on cooldown

Thanks for that Twinkle, much appreciated!

Quote from: TwinkleToes

Quote from: gytfunke
Blast Wave
...is unfortunately identical to the Tier 6 skill in the Titan tree. This skill should be replaced since Twinkle's looks fantastic. So, lemme get some ideas for a replacement skill:

Doom Knell

The Destroyer commands the souls of dead enemies within ~8m to attack the nearest enemy. 36-50% chance to cause enemies to flee for 5s. Deals flat ice damage.

Can affect up to 4 corpses.
Tier bonuses increase fear duration to 6/7/8s.

(Requires and destroys corpses. Creates homing missiles, not summoned units.)

this would be a good replacement, the spectral tree doesn't need another aura, and the destro is lacking in missile skills anyways, the only skills with missiles in them are doomquake and spectral bowman.

Oops forgot to post my comments for this one. Yeah @gytfunke I liked both these ideas of yours, but Death Knell sounds more interesting and I agree with Twinkle - more missile skills would be good for the Destro

(I can see nasty little missiles with gnashing teeth!)

gytfunke · « **Reply #14 on:** October 25, 2014, 07:29:12 am »

I'm down with the new themed passives. Can we pare them down to 3 per tree, ala Vanilla? 15 passives feels bulky.

I propose Spirit Bond as a passive for the Destro. It's very similar to Share the Wealth but I think the dual charge bars gives it new flavor.

Going to work on Doom Knell.

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Author Topic: Destroyer Gameplay Feedback (Read 5837 times)

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