Mod Projects => TL2 Item Patch - Public Board => Topic started by: RnF on September 19, 2014, 07:37:24 am
Title: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 19, 2014, 07:37:24 am
I am now getting into the bread and butter of this mod, the affixes.
Armor With the new stat Vitality stat no longer giving an armor bonus, this now needs to be obtained through affixes. I am thinking of giving an armor bonus to every chest piece with in it's Unittype that spawns every time (with a 0 slot). This affix would scale with item level. The bonus I will list below would be the % on a level 100 item
Here is what I am thinking roughly
Legendary Heavy Chest Armor: 400% armor bonus Unique Heavy Chest Armor: 300% armor bonus Magic Heavy Chest Armor: 275% armor bonus Normal Heavy Chest Armor: 250% armor bonus
Legendary Medium Chest Armor: 350% armor bonus Unique Medium Chest Armor: 250% armor bonus Magic Medium Chest Armor: 225% armor bonus Normal Medium Chest Armor: 200% armor bonus
Should I do something similar with Elemental armor, with it favoring Cloth armor?
Also will be doing away with flat stat bonuses ie +50 to Dexterity and will be implementing a % bonus instead, ie %50 Bonus to Dexterity. - This will reward players for investing into stats - Will help balance the game pertaining to stat bonuses and item requirement stats.
Damage Reduction - Should I allow this affix to spawn on armor? Currently it just spawns on a socketable. I really do not enjoy this mechanic. Forcing players to "be required" to have these socketables to reach the 75% DR to survive kills variety and devalues all other socketables. Simply putting them on armor as a random affix helps solve this issue... But it will become easier to get DR (which is good). I could just make it a Legendary item only affix. That way Legendary armor is a must have to survive.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: gytfunke on September 19, 2014, 12:05:28 pm
I'm still of the opinion that armor is a broken stat that should be replaced with DR. This would fix the problem of people needing to farm for DR% items, too. The only quirk would be that we'd need to go back and balance any DR% affixes that might spawn on items or ember (they'd probably need to be toned down).
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 19, 2014, 01:37:21 pm
So are you are proposing to have all armor with 0 armor and just use the DR% stat? At that point, there is no need to use DR as a dropable stat. A player would need more assurance for protection than having to rely a random DR Drop. Without DR on all armor at all times, it leaves the player extremely vulnerable.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: gytfunke on September 19, 2014, 03:01:27 pm
Yeah, that's what I'm proposing. 0 flat armor on all armor, replaced with a DR stat that
I figure to give both balance and progression the sum total of a suit of armor's DR bonus (all pieces included) should be something around the following:
Heavy (lv1) 25% DR Heavy (lv100) 50% DR
Medium (lv1) 15% DR Medium (lv100) 30% DR
Light (lv1) 10% DR Light (lv100) 20% DR
So, if we were to break down a suit of level 1 heavy armor, the DR on individual pieces might look like this:
Chest: 10% Legs: 7% Helm: 4% Gloves: 2% Boots: 2%
Or level 1 light armor might look like this:
Chest:5% Legs:3% Helm:1% Gloves:0.5% Boots:0.5%
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 19, 2014, 07:22:16 pm
Ok, I will try this out. It sounds very interesting and will probably work better than armor value for sure. It should be easier to work around and balance as well.
I have Heavy, Medium, Light and Cloth armor so I am thinking along the lines. It won't be very hard for me to implement this. Note++ ftw and then just creating an affix that controls the DR for the armor. Easy peasy.
Here is what I am try first Heavy 50% Medium 40% Light 30% Cloth 20%
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 19, 2014, 07:23:05 pm
I will put some DR on shields too ;)
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 19, 2014, 08:57:21 pm
Question
Should cloth armor be able to max out to 75 DR? If I allow DR to spawn randomly on items or on socketables, all armor unittypes will be able to max out DR. That would pretty much make no difference between the unittypes DR% wise. The only difference would be stat investment and affixes I choose to spawn on items. I don't think that is enough.
I think I should eliminate the DR from random spawns and socketables and completely control it on armor since it will now essentially become the new armor values. For variety I can have the DR affixes spawn in a range such as 45-50 so a player won't always get maxed out. They would still have to work for max DR or just really lucky.
Heavy Armor Maxes 75% Physical DR 50% Elemental DR
Medium Armor Maxes 65% Physical DR 60% Elemental DR
Light Armor Maxes 60% Physical DR 65% Elemental DR
Cloth Armor Maxes 50% Physical DR 75% Elemental DR
This will should help differentiate between armors. Otherwise everything will pretty much feel the same.
I could also break the Physical DR and Elemental DR to spawn on certain armor types. There are 7 armor types, that's a lot to split 50% across.
Physical DR Items Chest Armor Pants Helmet Shoulder Armor
Elemental DR Items Boots Gloves Belts
Maybe I can have shields reflect damage as their bonus and leave DR off of them.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: gytfunke on September 19, 2014, 09:35:20 pm
I like your thoughts about splitting physical and elemental DR.
I also like leaving DR off shields since they already provide block (which is pretty huge). I think missile reflect would be an appropriate second stat for shields if you feel its necessary, otherwise, I think it would be fine as just a common shield affix.
Keeping strict control of DR (no DR on random affixes, socketables, enchants, etc) is a good idea.
I don't think Heavy Armor should be able to max out DR since a few skills in game add this (Engineer's Bulwark passive). Plus, this would open up the option of allowing a few rare affixes to add just a little DR via necklaces or belts. If Heavy Armor caps out at 50% or 60% Physical DR, allowing 1-5% DR affixes to spawn on necklaces and/or belts would be reasonable. But this is a pretty small detail.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 19, 2014, 09:46:15 pm
It's the small details that make a good mod great. I like your idea of adding small bonuses on rings, amulets and belts.
Shields using block is good enough I agree.
Looks like I have some math to do. I want these to scale to level 105 items.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: gytfunke on September 20, 2014, 08:44:07 am
I love calculator work. Want me to set up a linear graph for you on a spreadsheet?
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: Phanjam on September 21, 2014, 04:12:53 am
Second the motion on the split physical and elemental DR. It just makes sense to me (which means it should make sense to other non-technically obsessive players :P )
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 23, 2014, 08:37:20 am
I think I am going to scratch the DR armor for now. There are multiple issues that are arising and I am not sure I want to/have the time to deal with it. This would be changing a major game mechanic. It will break a lot of things and essentially turn this mod into a complete conversion mod which really wasn't my intention. Once this mod is complete, I will revisit this. But for now, I just want to build on what's in place.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: gytfunke on September 23, 2014, 09:02:26 am
Sounds good, RnF. What kinda problems was it causing? I might attempt it in the future.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 23, 2014, 09:46:27 am
The biggest issue I can see is breaking skills for a lot of classes. I would have to make a lot more changes than just affixes to balance this out and make it work, not sure I am up for that challenge at this time.
With DR tapping out at 75%, there just isn't enough DR to pass along to all unittypes along all levels. Even at level 105, DR bonuses would be small on items. At lower levels, it would say 1% for awhile appearing not to give anymore of a bonus. It does not display as 1.25%, only 1% or 0% if it's less than one. So it would be confusing to players. I would have to ditch scaling affixes for this mod(which wouldn't be that big of a deal). But that makes improvement marginal at best as the player levels.
Compatibility with basically most mods is also an issue. I think if I was intending on making a complete overhaul mod, this would be the way to go. But I really just want to make loot better in general, and ditching the Core Mechanic of Armor would be a step in the wrong direction at this time. I think I can make items better with the current armor system in place.
The good thing, if I decided to give DR a try, the base work is completed and if you ever wanted to give it a go, you could use my mod as a base to start with.
I think this can be done and it would improve game play, but there are some pretty big hurdles to get over and it is a lot more work than it appears. Not sure I would be able to follow through with it.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: Phanjam on September 23, 2014, 10:08:07 am
The biggest issue I can see is breaking skills for a lot of classes.
Hi RnF! Can you expound this point a bit more pls? Im starting dreaming up some new skill trees for the "classless character" idea of gytfunke and I think it would be important to know what the issues are so that the design could still use this DR armor idea.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 23, 2014, 11:02:47 am
The Engineer for example, these are the skills that are affected by removing Armor.
Bulwark: Adds %Bonus to Armor and a Physical Damage% reduction. Taking armor out negates one bonus and with DR on armor it makes the % Bonus increase OP.
Sword and Board: Negates the Damage bonus due to removing armor.
Aegis of Fate: Negates the damage bonus to the shield damage absorption
Fire Bash: Negates Damage bonus for shield armor
Shield Bash: Negates damage for Shield armor bonus
Healing Bot: Negates Armor Tier Boosts for armor
This is just one class. There would be many more classes that I have no idea about that use these types of mechanics. So using DR instead of armor, would dissuade players to not use my mod unless I included a bunch of skill changes for a bunch of classes.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: RnF on September 23, 2014, 11:24:26 am
I know a lot of peoples frustrations are with 1 hit crit kills from monsters. I believe this can be fixed by other means. For example I could make debuff spell that reduces the enemies chances to land a critical hit.
I: Reduces enemies chance to crit by 25% for 60 seconds (10 meter radius) II: Reduces enemies chance to crit by 35% for 65 seconds III: Reduces enemies chance to crit by 45% for 70 seconds IV: Reduces enemies chance to crit by 55% for 75 seconds V: Reduces enemies chance to crit by 65% for 80 seconds VI: Reduces enemies chance to crit by 75% for 90 seconds
Could also make a spell that gives you a certain % of DR based on how much armor you have.
I: For every 100 Armor you get 1% DR for 60 seconds
I think I can work around this broken mechanic and patch it up. It may not be perfect, but I think it's a better solution than changing a core mechanic that will break a huge amount of stuff.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: gytfunke on September 23, 2014, 12:05:11 pm
PJ, I'm going to guess that any skill that reduces armor or buffs armor will be affected. Just for the Engi we'd have to work on Bulwark, Sword and Board, Repair Bot and probably a few more. With flat armor no longer being a thing none of these would work as intended.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: lolesch on October 16, 2015, 05:03:42 pm
I know a lot of peoples frustrations are with 1 hit crit kills from monsters. Could also make a spell that gives you a certain % of DR based on how much armor you have.
What about a passive skill checking for incomming DMG. when your Life falls off more than 70%(??) in short time the skill will prok a shield buffer effect (to absorb the rest of the dmg).. this skill has a cooldown or you have to fully heal to reset it.
Do you guys know how Armor is calculated and what is calculated first, DR or Armor? lets say:Can this be "patched" like your "remove 75% cap"
I thought of the %DR per xArmor too but I guess its better to boost Armor %based like for each 25 armor you get +10% Armor bonus
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: Karkozi the All-Powerful on October 16, 2015, 10:23:28 pm
What about a passive skill checking for incomming DMG. when your Life falls off more than 70%(??) in short time the skill will prok a shield buffer effect (to absorb the rest of the dmg).. this skill has a cooldown or you have to fully heal to reset it.
Do you guys know how Armor is calculated and what is calculated first, DR or Armor? lets say:Can this be "patched" like your "remove 75% cap"
I thought of the %DR per xArmor too but I guess its better to boost Armor %based like for each 25 armor you get +10% Armor bonus
1) Your solution with shield buffers is an arbitrary crutch. You can make a passive to 100% apply shield buffer on hit, but you still will die from 80k oneshots if your hp is below that. 2) A passive checking for amount of incoming damage seems impossible to me. 3) You are right about current state on armor/DR interaction. 4) That's quite an interesting work-around for DR cap. But: 4.1) Your calculations are either off or it's not a +10% armor bonus. It's +10 armor per 25 armor as is. The former and the latter are equal only for 100 armor case. 4.2) You're looking from the wrong perspective. 2000 damage is never a problem in TL2. Consider that most monsters hit for 2000 damage, but some could hit for 20000. How big should be your total armor? ~1500? Not nearly good enough. ~15000? Then it's D3-style, where most trash mobs can't go through your defense until very late into the game. That's why %DR is more fair in it's core. The only issue is how %DR ramps your survivablity. Ideally you need a curve so 100 armor equals 15%DR but 1000 armor equals 30%.
P.S. good job on necroing a one year old thread :D P.P.S. Oh, first post. Hi, everyone! 8)
EDIT: yes, and depending on how the game engine interprets stuff your idea may or may not lead to fatal error, since you're basically giving more armor per armor, so every update could cause your armor to increase uncontrollably. I haven't tried it though.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: lolesch on October 19, 2015, 11:58:14 am
1) Your solution with shield buffers is an arbitrary crutch. You can make a passive to 100% apply shield buffer on hit, but you still will die from 80k oneshots if your hp is below that. 2) A passive checking for amount of incoming damage seems impossible to me.
Well there is an UI element called Game State Controller and in the logic it has some interesting things like "player HP below 90 - 10 %". I'll use the below 10% to activate a stat operator creating a stat x. The player has a passive skill using the "absorb dmg" effect over y seconds. this skill requires stat x. gonna test it tonight.
The calculation are just random numbers to show how things work... and yeah i was thinking in the direction of D3 even if i dont like all the ballsy numbers. we might find another way?
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: Karkozi the All-Powerful on October 19, 2015, 02:15:48 pm
1) Your solution with shield buffers is an arbitrary crutch. You can make a passive to 100% apply shield buffer on hit, but you still will die from 80k oneshots if your hp is below that. 2) A passive checking for amount of incoming damage seems impossible to me.
Well there is an UI element called Game State Controller and in the logic it has some interesting things like "player HP below 90 - 10 %". I'll use the below 10% to activate a stat operator creating a stat x. The player has a passive skill using the "absorb dmg" effect over y seconds. this skill requires stat x. gonna test it tonight.
The calculation are just random numbers to show how things work... and yeah i was thinking in the direction of D3 even if i dont like all the ballsy numbers. we might find another way?
Ugh. Checked this Game State Controller you told me about. Seems completely unrelated to me. But anyway, you're right, it should be possible with Stat Evaluator block. Thanks, btw, I didn't knew of that feature. I'm still opposed to systems where you take damage first and receive a shield later.
I really don't have an answer on this topic though. You may just nerf one-shots and buff armor, but one could just play normal instead of elite for the very same result. It's taking the thrill away.
Title: need help with that skill!
Post by: lolesch on October 19, 2015, 03:12:33 pm
Well the UI element works fine, i can see the Stat been applied in the "player effect and stat watcher" window. But my skill does not "use" it...
what do I miss there?
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: gytfunke on October 19, 2015, 03:27:28 pm
Hey lolesch,
I think it's your skill setup.
Try this:
Passive Skill: No execute skill here No stat_watcher Instead apply affix with the effect: CAST SKILL ON STRUCK and input no_one_shot_proc into the NAME field.
Proc Skill: Put the stat_watcher below the LEVEL class, like this:
[LEVEL1] [EVENT_START] [EXECUTE_SKILL] [/EXECUTE_SKILL] [/EVENT_START] [/LEVEL1] [STATWATCHER] <STRING>STAT:NO_ONE_SHOT <STRING>PRIMARY_TARGET_TYPE:SELF <STRING>SECONDARY_TARGET_TYPE:VALUE <STRING>WATCH_TYPE:GREATER THAN OR EQUAL TO <FLOAT>SECONDARY_VALUE:1 [/STATWATCHER] The indentation's wonky, but I'm too lazy to fix it.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: lolesch on October 19, 2015, 04:00:14 pm
thanks gyt, I tried that and.. now i get an error :D Tomorow I'll try it again gn8
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: gytfunke on October 20, 2015, 06:35:36 am
Error?!? Noooooo.... :'(
If you need further help, feel free to post back with your updated affix/skill text like you did above. But, for errors thrown on a skill activation, I'd guess the most likely culprit is an improper file reference. I'd look at all the NAME fields and file names I'm working with.
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: lolesch on October 20, 2015, 02:52:21 pm
ok, here we go: And I liked them to my arbiter the Buff is applied instantly ignoring the statwatcher
Title: Re: Affixes - some thoughts
Post by: Phanjam on November 08, 2015, 04:02:01 am