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Mod Projects => Torchlight I Classes Pack - Public Board => Actual Gameplay Feedback => Topic started by: Phanjam on October 21, 2014, 09:36:51 am

Title: Destroyer Gameplay Feedback
Post by: Phanjam on October 21, 2014, 09:36:51 am

Was chatting with gyt on Steam and this came up...

Quote

gytfunke: What I did get from testing the Destro for about 30m was this...
gytfunke: It's a wee bit OP!

PHΔΠJΔM: LOL thats why I love it!

gytfunke: Mostly I think it's the state of Slash Attack, Soul Rend and the charge bar.

gytfunke: The thing starts with 25% DR, then gets another 20% from charge.  Makes it really tough.

gytfunke: Then, Soul Rend just tears things up.  It's way OP.  But I don't know if you have Twinkle's latest stuff in there.  It seems the same as it did when we first started on this two months ago.

I'll put up an issues summary somewhere in this thread to help us keep our eyes on the ball.

P.S. - yup that's all Twinkle's latest work ;)

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: TwinkleToes on October 21, 2014, 12:28:50 pm

soul rend probably destroys things purely from shocking monsters,
the damage is a bit high on the titan tree, but.. none of the damage values ive put in there exceed the embermages or berserkers raw numbes, the skills in there also have no mana costs, thats what i mainly use to balance out high damage skills
anyways
have you guys tested in the very end game?(where all the balancing maters)

i usually balance from OP>Nerf, meaning i make overpowered stuff then nerf them gradually down, so some of the stuff in there might be a bit OP

for the DR problem:
DR should never be a free stat, i suggest taking out the passive 25% then integrating it into the charge bar, and making that ramp up from 0-25%

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 21, 2014, 04:34:47 pm

Okay, good to hear all the new stuff is in.

Soul Rend
Yeah, Soul Rend is way OP.  Higher mana costs would definitely help.  Also, in TL1, Soul Rend was a single target attack.  This version is clear-cutting pretty much all monsters in a close range.

Slash Attack
Slash Attack is both OP and UP, but probably closer to balanced.  If you're dual-wielding, it rocks the house.  Considering the REALLY short range of the attack, this is probably fine as long as the mana cost is bumped a bit.  It's at like 5 right now at level 1.  If you're NOT dual-wielding, you get half the damage out of it and it's pretty weak.  It doesn't really do anything more than a basic attack.  If you wanted to narrow the damage gap between dual-wielding and a single one-hander on this skill you could change it like this:

a) There should be two HIT points on the animation timeline.  Change one to HITTWO.
b) Copy and paste the EVENT_TRIGGER in the skill to make a second entry.  Make it an EVENT_TRIGGERTWO.
c) Increase the damage on EVENT_TRIGGER, decrease the damage on EVENT_TRIGGERTWO.

Voila.  It would make dual-wielding benefit this skill, but not double the damage.

Charge Bar
I like you idea of removing the inherent 25% damage reduction, Twinkle, but it doesn't line up with Runic's decision to add it to the other two melee classes.  I think we should replace the damage reduction on the charge mechanic for something else.  Maybe a 0-20% bonus to armor.

(Does this actually reduce total damage reduction? Let's see:
Example 1: 45% DR (from inherent bonus and charge bar)
Monster deals 1000 damage, - player armor (200?) = 800-(800*0.45)= 440

Example 2: 25% DR (from inherent bonus), +20% armor
Monster deals 1000 damage, - player armor (220) = 780-(780*0.25)= 585

Example 3: same as 2, but with more armor
1000 damage, - player armor (500*1.20) = 400 - (400*0.25) = 300

Example 4: same as 1, but with more armor
1000 damage, - player armor (500) = 500 - (500*0.25) = 375)

I think I'm okay with the 20% armor bonus more than the 20% DR.  What say you?


Shadow Armor
I think the block bonus is too high.  I'm thinking 4% +1 per level (max 18%) would be more appropriate.  As is, it's 4% +3 per level (max +46% block).  With the average shield's block rating (+10%) and maxxing the Block passive (30% block), you've already exceeded the block cap without even investing in Vitality.

In return, I think the damage of the Shadow Armor should go up with each level (it doesn't right now, keeping in line with TL1 Shadow Armor).

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: TwinkleToes on October 22, 2014, 12:23:13 am

Quote

I like you idea of removing the inherent 25% damage reduction, Twinkle, but it doesn't line up with Runic's decision to add it to the other two melee classes.  I think we should replace the damage reduction on the charge mechanic for something else.  Maybe a 0-20% bonus to armor.

i would go the other way around, and do 20% inherent armor bonus, then the reduction on the charge bar, it would make the destro more unique to the other melee classes,
if we were to 100% copy runic, i would get rid of the generic passives on the Tl1 classes and actually give them unique passives of their own, like TL2, but that's up to phan to decide i guess..

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Soul Rend

If the damage is at TL1 levels right now I say we keep that, but totally agree it should affect only a single enemy like in TL1.  Yes this skill should cost you a LOT of mana.

Slash Attack

gyt, on your suggestion about 2 hit events - sorry if Im not understanding, but won't this just apply to your 2nd weapon as well?  I believe I can handle the addition of another hit event on the animation tho.

On the mana cost - can I start it at a higher level (than 5) but still use a graph to increment it?

Shadow Armor

I'm with you gyt on reducing the block so it caps at 18 or so.

I like the idea of greater damage as you level the skill, but I don't think it should be major. Another option is to add something other than damage. knockback? immobilize? DOT?

Charge Bar

Quote from: TwinkleToes

i would go the other way around, and do 20% inherent armor bonus, then the (damage) reduction on the charge bar, it would make the destro more unique to the  other melee classes,

gyt, correct me ifI'm wrong, but wasn't the original idea to grant the effect only when the bar gets full, not while building charge? I remember we computed you'd need to get hit like 25 times before you fill that bar, which is quite a bit of damage to take.  So finally getting the effect is probably something you'd really need by that time :D

As to what effect is granted, if it's ON/OFF (as I suggest above) I'm fine with either DR or Armor Bonus (maybe because I don't appreciate the finer differences between these).  If not, maybe we could consider stuff like %Block? Dodge?

Something else to consider so the defensive effect doesn't get overused - could building charge on the "offensive" bar (from landing hits) reduce charge on the defensive bar?

Quote from: TwinkleToes

if we were to 100% copy runic, i would get rid of the generic passives on the Tl1 classes and actually give them unique passives of their own, like TL2, but that's up to phan to decide i guess..

Twinkle, I hesitate to do that as it would really break away from the TL1 mold.  Also, I see (and this is just me) the passives in there now as just variations on the same variables which the TL2 classes use for their passives.  Maybe another approach is to see if we'vemissed out on any passives which would be good to add to the generics?

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 23, 2014, 02:47:59 pm

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Slash Attack

gyt, on your suggestion about 2 hit events - sorry if Im not understanding, but won't this just apply to your 2nd weapon as well?  I believe I can handle the addition of another hit event on the animation tho.

Mmm, I wasn't clear.  This skill has 2 possible animations.  One animation fires when wielding one weapon (2-hand or 1-hand, doesn't matter).  Then, if you're dual-wielding, it fires a different animation.  The dual-wielding animation has 2 HIT points (the other has only 1).  With 2 HIT points, it's firing the EVENT_TRIGGER twice, i.e. double damage.

What I suggest is changing one of the HIT points to a HITTWO, which is linked to EVENT_TRIGGER_TWO.  Then, we put in an EVENT_TRIGGER_TWO which deals less than full damage.  So, instead of dealing 2xdamage for dual wielding, maybe give it 1.4xdamage.

The EVENT_TRIGGER_TWO will never be called when wielding one weapon because there's no HITTWO point on that animation's timeline.

EVENT_TRIGGER would deal say 86% WDPS, always
EVENT_TRIGGER_TWO would deal say 34% WDPS, but only when dual-wielding.

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

On the mana cost - can I start it at a higher level (than 5) but still use a graph to increment it?

If you put a value in the MANA_COST field, it overwrites the MANA_GRAPH field, I believe.  Or maybe it adds to it.  Either way... just use the MANA_GRAPH, then if you want to make it cost more or less, use the MANA_GRAPH_SCALE field.

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Shadow Armor

I'm with you gyt on reducing the block so it caps at 18 or so.

I like the idea of greater damage as you level the skill, but I don't think it should be major. Another option is to add something other than damage. knockback? immobilize? DOT?

I'm now thinking that maybe the block bonus on this should be removed altogether and replaced with a flat, level-scaling, bonus to armor.  There's too much block going around.  Or, it could be something like 0.5% or 0.67% block per level + some bonus flat armor.

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Charge Bar

gyt, correct me ifI'm wrong, but wasn't the original idea to grant the effect only when the bar gets full, not while building charge? I remember we computed you'd need to get hit like 25 times before you fill that bar, which is quite a bit of damage to take.  So finally getting the effect is probably something you'd really need by that time :D

As to what effect is granted, if it's ON/OFF (as I suggest above) I'm fine with either DR or Armor Bonus (maybe because I don't appreciate the finer differences between these).  If not, maybe we could consider stuff like %Block? Dodge?

Oh, right now it's a constant bonus that just gets better as the bar builds  (so 10% charge = +2%DR right now, 100% charge = +20%DR).  It's kinda like the Outlander's charge bar.

I like the constant bonus, but that's just me.  I leave the ultimate decision up to you, Phanjam.

Quote from: Phanjam on October 23, 2014, 08:14:11 am

Something else to consider so the defensive effect doesn't get overused - could building charge on the "offensive" bar (from landing hits) reduce charge on the defensive bar?

Possible, but would it be desirable?  I don't know how this would feel.

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 23, 2014, 06:03:11 pm

STOP THE PRESSES

Whoa.

I just loaded the TL1CP onto my work computer (ain't nothin' going on right now).

I'm seeing all of your guys' new work.  What I was playing on my laptop at home was not the most recent version.  For some reason I think an older existing version of the mod (with the same mod name most likely) was taking precedence over the Steam version.

Twinkle, gorgeous work on Soul Rend!  I love it!  Not OP at all.

I'll keep testing as I have time, but this is looking waaaaay better now that I'm seeing all of your guys' updates.

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: TwinkleToes on October 23, 2014, 07:28:34 pm

 :D :D
thanks gyt

Quote

I'm now thinking that maybe the block bonus on this should be removed altogether and replaced with a flat, level-scaling, bonus to armor.  There's too much block going around.  Or, it could be something like 0.5% or 0.67% block per level + some bonus flat armor.

try %vitality, since vitality already gives you block, but not too much of it, the percentage will also encourage investing into vitality to make the most use of the skill

Quote

If the damage is at TL1 levels right now I say we keep that, but totally agree it should affect only a single enemy like in TL1.  Yes this skill should cost you a LOT of mana.

i agree with this and will make changes once i can get some time

Quote

wasn't the original idea to grant the effect only when the bar gets full, not while building charge? I remember we computed you'd need to get hit like 25 times before you fill that bar, which is quite a bit of damage to take.  So finally getting the effect is probably something you'd really need by that time :D

i think this way would promote a non melee kite style, you'd never want to get to a state where you need to get hit 25 times just for defensive stats, when you could just play smart and avoid getting hit as much as possible which totally goes against the destroyers archetype imo
this would also discourage building dodge, since dodging will not grant you any charge, if you wanted to play against the destros archetype and mass dodge everything

Quote

Twinkle, I hesitate to do that as it would really break away from the TL1 mold.  Also, I see (and this is just me) the passives in there now as just variations on the same variables which the TL2 classes use for their passives.  Maybe another approach is to see if we'vemissed out on any passives which would be good to add to the generics?

well yea, and heres my pitch to you phan
some tl2 passives are as generic as the tl1 passives..
but stuff like the shadowling ammo/ death ritual interaction, which gives you a different avenue for builds on a character, can be added on to the old classes, and give our users a fresh perspective on the class they loved from tl1.
also i love developing and creating passive skills, its incredibly satisfying to me when you can get some insane idea to work, and purely for that i would make new passives for the tl1 classes,
but the ball is on your court phan, and i just wanted to give my thoughts to you, so you can see a different point of view

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 24, 2014, 12:17:42 am

Quote

this would also discourage building dodge, since dodging will not grant you any charge

Dodges and blocks are hooked up to add charge to the defensive bar, just like getting hit.

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 24, 2014, 07:33:41 am

So, here's my feedback so far now that I'm playing the real thing.

Slash Attack
Is pretty good as is.  Add 'Can Attack Fallback' at the skill level.

Stampede
The attack/cast speed debuffs seem kinda low.  Otherwise, pretty nice.

Soul Rend
I don't think this needs to be single target.  Sorry, the skill I was so blown away by was the original which was doing 125% dps + flat electric damage to everything within 3m of the destro, twice (there were two hit points on the animation).  The current version is awesome.

Shadow Armor
I dunno about vitality.  Adding a % to a primary stat seems OP since it'll make item unlocks easier.  I think I'm going to go with that 1/2 block, 1/2 armor solution.  The armor will boost the effectiveness of Shield Slam (which doesn't seem to do much damage right now).

Entropic Aura
I need to give this a duration indicator.  Also going to increase its duration to 2m.

Doomquake
Can attack fallback, maybe?

Title: Re: Actual TL1CP Play Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 24, 2014, 02:30:12 pm

Blast Wave
...is unfortunately identical to the Tier 6 skill in the Titan tree.  This skill should be replaces since Twinkle's looks fantastic.  So, lemme get some ideas for a replacement skill:

1)An active skill that matches the theme of the Spectral tree?  I'm thinking:

Doom Knell

The Destroyer commands the souls of dead enemies within ~8m to attack the nearest enemy.  36-50% chance to cause enemies to flee for 5s.  Deals flat ice damage.

Can affect up to 4 corpses. 
Tier bonuses increase fear duration to 6/7/8s.

(Requires and destroys corpses.  Creates homing missiles, not summoned units.)


2)A new aura?  Maybe something that buffs the party?  I'm thinking:

Spirit Bond
As the Destroyer builds charge, the Destroyer and all allies within the aura's radius gain combat bonuses.

(But opposite of the Destroyer's normal bonuses, as the destroyer builds charge from damage taken/blocked/dodged, allies would gain attack speed or damage boosts.  As s/he builds charge from damage dealt, allies gain armor or damage reduction)

Tier Bonuses would include added stun/immobilize resistance.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: Phanjam on October 24, 2014, 10:44:26 pm

Hiyya!

Spoiler (hover to show)

This thread was getting pretty long, so I renamed it about the Destroyer so that other threads can be about the other classes (and I 'm sure those will get long too!).

Then to set these feedback threads apart, I made this TL1CP-child board dedicated to "Gameplay Feedback".

Warrior Tree Stuff

Thanks @gytfunke for all the feedback!

Okay, I'll add CAN ATTACK FALLBACK on Slash Attack.  That's adding the line
"<BOOL>CAN_ATTACK_FALLBACK:true"
in the .DAT, am I right? But allow me a newb question - what does this do to/for the skill? :P

On Stampede's attack/cast speed debuffs being a little low, let me bump those up a bit.

Just let me know if you guys see anything that needs improvement on the other skills (I need to get more playtime into TL1CP too :-[ )

Charge Bar

Okay the consensus is that the bars should grant benefits as they build-up. Done ;D

I'm with Twinkle that the Destro archetype style is "the best defense is a BLOODBATH OFFENSE!"  So I think the "defensive" charge bar is useful mainly in MP where a party needs a tank (and I think having a class feature that benefits/promotes MP party-play is a good thing ;) )

I wanna say maybe the defensive-bar should support the tank role specifically, But I don't really know what playstyle the "tank role" is or what it needs (having played mainly SP myself).

On the danger that the defensive boosts make the class OP for single player, how about variations on the idea that "offensive charge negates defensive charge"?

Class-specific Passives

@TwinkleToes I'm actually with you on the idea of adding totally new passives in TL1CP, since a lot of the TL1 passives we have in there are already available in TL2 as tomes or spells which make our passives redundant.

But this is our mod not just mine, so I really think we need a little pow-wow on this...

My personal idea is to replace some of the TL1CP passives with wild new passives, but make them available to all the TL1CP classes in keeping with the TL1 mold.

Pls share your thoughts ;)

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: TwinkleToes on October 25, 2014, 03:09:30 am

Quote

My personal idea is to replace some of the TL1CP passives with wild new passives, but make them available to all the TL1CP classes in keeping with the TL1 mold.

OMG yes!, this is beyond what i was thinking :D,
we can make each set of passives on each tree be related to each class,
for instance the destroyer would have an opportunity to invest in passives which would be themed/related for the alch or vanq,
allowing a mix and match type system,
they would be shared amongst the 3 classes, but they could potentially serve very different functions for each one!

Quote

Okay, I'll add CAN ATTACK FALLBACK on Slash Attack.  That's adding the line
"<BOOL>CAN_ATTACK_FALLBACK:true"
in the .DAT, am I right? But allow me a newb question - what does this do to/for the skill? :P

yep just add it in the skill strings
attack fallback allows a skill to default(fallback) to your auto attacks when you don't have enough mana to cast the skill or when the skill goes on cooldown

Quote

Blast Wave
...is unfortunately identical to the Tier 6 skill in the Titan tree.  This skill should be replaces since Twinkle's looks fantastic.  So, lemme get some ideas for a replacement skill:

Doom Knell

The Destroyer commands the souls of dead enemies within ~8m to attack the nearest enemy.  36-50% chance to cause enemies to flee for 5s.  Deals flat ice damage.

Can affect up to 4 corpses.
Tier bonuses increase fear duration to 6/7/8s.

(Requires and destroys corpses.  Creates homing missiles, not summoned units.)

thanks :D
this would be a good replacement, the spectral tree doesn't need another aura, and the destro is lacking in missile skills anyways, the only skills with missiles in them are doomquake and spectral bowman.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: Phanjam on October 25, 2014, 03:37:08 am

Quote from: TwinkleToes

OMG yes!, this is beyond what i was thinking :D,
we can make each set of passives on each tree be related to each class,
for instance the destroyer would have an opportunity to invest in passives which would be themed/related for the alch or vanq,
allowing a mix and match type system,
they would be shared amongst the 3 classes, but they could potentially serve very different functions for each one!

Ey @TwinkleToes I'm glad you liked the idea! Let's listen to what @gytfunke thinks too.  Would love to hear from  @RnF as well, but I know he's been really busy lately.  If he can't get back to us I think it'll be okay for just the 3 of us to make the call ;)

Quote from: TwinkleToes

attack fallback allows a skill to default(fallback) to your auto attacks when you don't have enough mana to cast the skill or when the skill goes on cooldown

Thanks for that Twinkle, much appreciated!

Quote from: TwinkleToes

Quote from: gytfunke

Blast Wave
...is unfortunately identical to the Tier 6 skill in the Titan tree.  This skill should be replaced since Twinkle's looks fantastic.  So, lemme get some ideas for a replacement skill:

Doom Knell

The Destroyer commands the souls of dead enemies within ~8m to attack the nearest enemy.  36-50% chance to cause enemies to flee for 5s.  Deals flat ice damage.

Can affect up to 4 corpses.
Tier bonuses increase fear duration to 6/7/8s.

(Requires and destroys corpses.  Creates homing missiles, not summoned units.)

this would be a good replacement, the spectral tree doesn't need another aura, and the destro is lacking in missile skills anyways, the only skills with missiles in them are doomquake and spectral bowman.

Oops forgot to post my comments for this one. Yeah @gytfunke I liked both these ideas of yours, but Death Knell sounds more interesting and I agree with Twinkle - more missile skills would be good for the Destro ;) (I can see nasty little missiles with gnashing teeth!)

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 25, 2014, 07:29:12 am

I'm down with the new themed passives.  Can we pare them down to 3 per tree, ala Vanilla?  15 passives feels bulky.

I propose Spirit Bond as a passive for the Destro.  It's very similar to Share the Wealth but I think the dual charge bars gives it new flavor.

Going to work on Doom Knell.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 25, 2014, 10:48:34 pm

Heyo,

@Phanjam let's try not to change any more skill or affix Name strings.  It breaks references to those skills found in other skills or affixes.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: Phanjam on October 26, 2014, 06:39:01 am

 :( sorry about that!  Tried to tidy-up the folder structure... hope it's not beyond repair!

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 26, 2014, 07:28:11 am

Nah, it's all fixed up.  Hey, super sorry about not making it this morning.  :(  First, I didn't wake up till 7, then Windows decided it needed to force a 20 minute update on me.  Now TL2 won't start. 

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 26, 2014, 09:48:56 am

So, Wolven and I got some testing time in on the Destro today and one thing became very apparent.

The Destro has no survivability and no ranged abilities (for the most part).

It really needs some life leech, hp regen, damage shields, etc to be viable in melee, especially versus bosses.  It really fell apart when we encountered our first boss (Mordrox)

I propose we implement a few more survivability skills, especially for the low levels where there are none.  All the Destro has right now is healing from Chains and Tier 1 Entropic Aura.  There's Frozen Shield, but that's not till level 28.

Here are some ideas:

I could make the healing on Entropic Aura available from rank 1 (level 7).  There's Twinkle's proposed survivability passive (which is really good, I think).  But neither of these is an active "Spam this button for more survivability" skill.  The point of a spammable survivability skill, of course, being that it forces you to sacrifice offense to get yourself out of a dangerous situation (a la Shadow Burst for the Zerker, or the charge-devouring Force Field for engi).  I know we have Shield Slam, but it requires a shield, which is going to exclude a lot of Destros.

However, I like the way Shield Slam applies its damage shield.  Maybe we could migrate that to a new survivability spam skill.  I could nix Doom Knell in the Spectral Tree (or Wind Wall), and turn it into a 1st tier skill such as this:

Inevitable Advance
The Destro takes a powerful swing that interrupts enemies and blocks their blows.  (Chance to interrupt, adds the damage shield a la Shield Slam, and moves the Destro forward a little bit.  Deals low %WDPS, like 20%)

Chthon pointed out that the Berzerk skill feels kinda ho hum.  I also think it overlaps with the Zerker too much.  I say we change it to another survivability skill (the Destro already has lots of offensive punch).  This is, of course, up to you, Phanjam, but here's my idea:

Berzerk (or, maybe rename it Unstoppable, Pain Meditation, something like that)
Gain a large damage shield (that essentially makes you invincible for a short while) that lasts for ~5-8s and provides Stun/Slow/Immobilize resists.
Long cooldown, like 30 or 45 seconds.
Tier bonuses increase the damage shield's duration.

Last idea:
I could change Shadow Armor to provide a damage shield.  When the shield drops, the specter dies as well, forcing the player to recast it more often.  But this doesn't make the player choose as much between damage output and survivability the way Shadow Burst and Forcefield do.

More than last idea:
We could change Chain Vortex to be the main lifesteal skill instead of a stunning skill.  Titan Stomp kinda takes over the role of AoE stun.  So, I say we remove the stun from Chain Vortex, call it something else, and move its life steal component to rank 1.  We could also switch Stampede and Chain Vortex so that it's available earlier.  I think that's necessary.  A sustain skill is really needed even from early on.  I think I like this idea the best so far.

Needs more ideas.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 26, 2014, 09:49:54 am

Also,

Skeletal Phalanx:
The skeletons should have a rimlight attached to them or something to make them stand out from hostile undead.  They blend in too well.
The targeting might also be changed.  They tend to show up on the wrong side of impassable walls a lot.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 26, 2014, 04:45:16 pm

As Chthon reported,

Slash Attack is in fact applying to champions and bosses.  I see you're using an EFFECT instead of an AFFIX to apply the actual kill effect.  Pack it in an affix and add NOT UNITTYPES: Boss & Champion.

I don't agree with Chthon's idea to match kill chance to critical strikes.  It's either going to be too rare or too common due to the way you can build crit chance on items.

Cast speed also seems slow on Slash Attack.  Maybe speed it up a little?  Also, speeding it up will increase the occurrence of instakills.  So if you do speed it up, reduce the instakill chance.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: Phanjam on October 27, 2014, 09:07:38 am

Here is Chthon's Oct.26 feedback post on Steam

Spoiler (hover to show)

Here's my first impressions of this class:

First and foremost, my comments are going to lean very heavily towards criticism. That's not because I don't like the class, but rather because criticism helps identify what needs work.

0. This class has no charge bar?

1. Skill unlock levels need straightened out. They're crazy right now.

2. Shadow Armor. Contrary to the description, it doesn't block for you. Rather, it gives you a bonus to block chance *IF* you have a shield. That forces it to be sort of a niche skill. Perhaps a better choice would be a chance once each second to cast a low-power shield buffer (forcefield) that lasts 1 sec. (This is how I implement "weapon block," btw.)

3. The instakill on slash attack is OP in 2 ways: First, it works on champs and bosses. Second, the proc chance is way too high. The first problem can be fixed by adding a set stat to the champ_resists and boss_resists affixes, and then using a stat watcher to only apply instakill to things without that stat. The second problem could be fixed by lowering the percent (boring) or having it trigger only if the skill critical hits (more exciting).

4. Stampede. Not sure it's really traveling the distance it should be. The wolf particle effect looks funky -- needs a new one.

5. Chain vortex. The health steal on this is kinda useless because of the recharge. Mana steal (of a noticeable size) might be better, since it would encourage the player to think about timing, positioning, and mana management in a connected way. This skill seems a little bland, and could use some more effects.

6. Devastate. The animation for this looks awesome. That said, it lacks the "heft" of TL1 devastate; it seems more like something a thief or ninja class would use. It's really hard to hit things with this skill. Part of the issue is that the damage shapes may be too small. The other part is that changing direction happens really slowly. Also, the WDPS seems to be the same for every rank, so I'm wondering what does increase with rank? Also, also, the description text looks a little funky.

7. The skeleton summons need a highly visible unittheme that identifies them as friendly.

8. Soul Rend looks amazingly awesome. Numbers need toned down, but otherwise fine.

9. Too many skills that deal both WDPS and flat damage. These skills tend to end up OP (see wolfpack, emberquake). Some of them should be changed to deal only one or the other.

10. Titan stomp. This skill is brokenly OP because it's too easy to knock-lock/stun-lock everything that might hurt you, while killing it with the WDPS. Either (a) add a short cooldown so it can't lock, or (b) remove the WDPS and make it LOW flat damage so that it doesn't kill things, or (c) remove the stun and KB so it can't lock. Also, looks great.

11. Shield Slam. I really like the particle art on this one. The skill suffers from the same problem as the engineer shield skills, it basically does no damage. This is a TL2 engine problem, but it still needs to be worked around so that the skill doesn't stink.

12. Doomquake. Dang. This honestly looks better than emberquake. Needs to be the top-tier skill since it's got huge-radius, ranged, homing, AoE damage.

13. Frost Shield. It doesn't seem like the proc effect actually does anything. I was standing around trying to get hit, and I never once saw anything freeze when it procced.

14. DR%... This class can get waaaaaay too much DR% from skills. Assuming it's got the same base DR% as engineers/zerkers, then Frost Shield should be limited to 10% (maybe 15% at the absolute maximum) and the toughness passive should not exist at all.

15. Seismic Burst is a great skill. It reminds me of the druid's shockwave in D2. But it's OP with the current numbers. Given the spamability and great AoE cone, the damage per cast should be pretty low.

16. Carnage call amuses me, but I don't see what justifies making it the top tier skill for its tree.

17. Shadow bowman is ridiculous. He's mowing things down before they have any chance to get close. (And I bet it's worse with a draw distance mod.) He either needs his shot rate cut slowed down or his vision range cut down. (I recall that cutting the vision on friendly minions is not straightforward at all. I'll post about it somewhere once I remember how to do it right.)

18. Berserk. (Forgot to list this earlier.) For its intended purpose, it need to also give a bonus to cast speed, since attack skills (unintuitively) use cast time. This is another TL2 engine issue, so... meh. Otherwise, this skill just feels kinda lame. It needs to do more. Maybe something with critical hits. Also, the skill description text seems to have extra newlines all over.

19. I think the aura skills should be implemented as toggle skills per TwinkleToes' tutorial (http://forums.runicgames.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=57868). They also need to show up on the player's status bar.

20. Entropic Aura. Since this skill is the only decent heal the class has, the heal needs to be available from rank 1. The particle for the heal should be recolored or something so that it's not confusing with the embermage skill. The description is missing the duration.

21. Thorns is the only affirmatively bad skill in the whole set. It causes massive unwanted aggro. Either dramatically cut the radius, or totally rework the skill. If reworking, perhaps an aura that gives all allies %damage-reflected (small numbers since it can get really OP with minions) and a chance to cause bleeding on hit? Also, while I like the unittheme for this skill, it's too visually busy. Could be fixed by making it more transparent.

22. Blast wave. Casts soooo slow. Feels redundant with seismic burst. This needs to do something much, much cooler to justify its existence.

23. Wind wall - I didn't check, but the cooldown needs to go up with the duration so that it's never maintainable. If it's maintainable, it becomes a cheesy melee invincibility skill.

24. Spectral Slam - typos in skill description

25. Overall this class lacks healing capabilities. Entropic aura is good. (Which is problematic because it means no one will ever use a different aura.) Chain vortex has too much cooldown to be useful as a heal.

26. By contrast, this class has way too many skills that cause stun. When you will probably get stun capability if you just pick your skills at random, it cheapens the skills you might deliberately choose for stun.

27. Crits are a big part of TL2, and this class has nothing that interacts with them besides one (OP) passive.

28. I'm wary about the passives on this class (and all the pack classes), for at least four reasons. First, I don't like going over 30 skills. It leads to "jack of all trades, master of none" skill distributions. Second, they feel generic and lack personality. Third, at the very least toughness, crit strikes, dodge mastery, and block are quite OP. Fourth, while I haven't thought it through, I'm wary that stacking these on top of the passive spell scrolls might give numbers that are too big for some things. I think I'd rather see three passives per tree that do a little more per skill and have more personality.

I'll be back with more thoughts later, but I may try out the other classes first.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 27, 2014, 11:04:01 am

So I made some changes to my set of skills and the innate passives over the weekend:

1) No more innate 25% damage redux.  Instead it's +25% armor.  The charge bar still gives +20% damage redux at max charge.

2) Shadow Armor
I changed this to apply a short-duration, low-powered shield buffer like Chthon suggested.  I think it works nicely.  The minion's damage now scales as well.

3) Auras
I added the time indicator and changed the duration to always be 2m.  I don't know if I agree with Chthon's suggestion to make them toggleable.  Toggleables essentially become passive skills unless you add an associated debuff (like +skill mana cost).  I think having to recast them every 2m (for a huge chunk of mana) will probably be fine.

I haven't touched the mechanics of the auras.  I ran through the mapworks testing and didn't feel that Thorns Aura caused any problems drawing unwanted aggro.  I want further confirmation from other testers before I change it.

For Entropic Aura, I think the heal should be dissociated from the attack/cast/movespeed debuffs that are currently on it.  Either Entropic Aura should a) debuff as originally intended, or b) heal.  I'm leaning towards A.  In which case, I might move the heal either a) onto Spectral Decay, or b) onto a new skill to replace Doom Knell.  I'll put Doom Knell into the next update, but I don't much like it.  Requiring corpses is VERY constraining for an active skill.

4) Spectral Decay
This wasn't scaling correctly.  Fixed it.  Removed the Stun chance.  I think Chthon's right about there being a sizeable amount of stun available and I think this is one of the skills where it wasn't really necessary.

Still need to test shadow bowman.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: TwinkleToes on October 27, 2014, 02:12:21 pm

Quote

3) Auras
I added the time indicator and changed the duration to always be 2m.  I don't know if I agree with Chthon's suggestion to make them toggleable.  Toggleables essentially become passive skills unless you add an associated debuff (like +skill mana cost).  I think having to recast them every 2m (for a huge chunk of mana) will probably be fine.

you can make the toggleable have a cost, that is a mana reduction debuff, essentially reserving a certain amount of flat mana or %mana,
i can help you greatly with designing the auras if you choose to go the toggleable route, cthon did link a tutorial i had done when i innovated a method on how to make a 100% foolproof aura system, ive refined that to an extreme degree and can show you hows its done

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: Wolven on October 28, 2014, 01:40:11 am

Quote from: TwinkleToes on October 27, 2014, 02:12:21 pm

[...]
i can help you greatly with designing the auras if you choose to go the toggleable route, cthon did link a tutorial i had done when i innovated a method on how to make a 100% foolproof aura system, ive refined that to an extreme degree and can show you hows its done

Yes, please do share your techniques and methods. Half the point of this site is building a knowledge base, so if you have the time and feel up to it, please document them. Preferably in the wiki.  ;)

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 28, 2014, 06:13:00 pm

I would love to get your toggleable aura system method.  I don't want to implement it yet, though, until we decide on what the auras should be doing.

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: gytfunke on October 29, 2014, 11:47:31 am

So, I think I'm going to revert the effects of the auras back to their originals from TL1.  So, Entropic Aura will only debuff and Thorns aura will still do damage like it does.  The heal will be gone from Entropic Aura.  This'll preserve the feel of the Destro.

I'm going to leave Thorns Aura's tier bonuses.  That is, the radius increases with level.  I'm going to implement the same for Entropic Aura.

To remedy Chthon's concerns about Thorns drawing unwanted aggro, I'll go ahead with your toggleable implementation, Twinkle.  Being able to toggle it off will allow one to choose better when they want to have Thorns active.  If you draw unwanted aggro with it, well, you did decide to turn it on.  But I'm sure you'll want it on when those hordes of shock copters are buzzing around you in the Ezrohir dungeons.  Twinkle, tell me what I need to do for the toggle aura!

Title: Re: Destroyer Feedback
Post by: TwinkleToes on October 29, 2014, 03:57:57 pm

o awesome
im pretty busy atm, so sorry for the late reply gyt
ill be making a tutorial on my advanced version of the toggle system to share with everyone, ill try to make it as detailed and comprehensive as i can, ill be using one of the auras as a demo, and i wll provide template codes so you can see the inner workings much better,
sit tight  ;)

Title: Re: Destroyer Gameplay Feedback
Post by: Geist on December 18, 2015, 09:36:28 pm

So I haven't actually played Destroyer yet, but I did take a peek during chargen. I gotta say, I love that the class has unique models. The game is always throwing its concept art in your face, but all your characters end up looking like the same generic two or three people. The Destroyer rightfully stands out. It's also great how their idle animation doesn't hide their face during chargen.

I did notice a few redundancies though. Female Destroyer has identical faces (5&17, 6&15, 8&18) and identical hair colors (1&12, 2&11, 4&10). Could be even more instances that I didn't spot.

I like the Destroyer's portraits as well, but I think they could do without the red outlines. They feel out of place, as do the blue outlines on Alchemist portraits.